Forgive me Father, that is troubling to hear you believe the Catholic Church has valid eucharist, and apostolic succession. This implies the Church is divided, as if there are multiple bodies of Christ; as if there the Catholics have a valid priesthood, and retain the faith of the Apostles. Does not this lead to the Anglicans also having apostolic success, perhaps even high-church Lutherans?
This is not Patristic, nor within our contemporary Saints or ancient Fathers.
May St John of Shanghai, of which you have a temple dedication, pray for us. Individual opinions do not matter – the Church, and Saints, and Holy Fathers matter. As Saint Paisios says, we are not allowed to change the faith held by the early Fathers and millions of martyrs who refused to bow before another faith.
****************
Saint John of Shanghai on the Oneness of the Church, which is the Oneness of the Body of Christ
From Man of God, Saint John of Shanghai & San Francisco: The Church as the Body of Christ, p. 163-172
“And He (Christ) is the head of the body, the Church” (Col. 1:18),
“which is His body, the fullness of Him that filleth all in all” (Eph. 1:23).
In the Holy Scriptures the Church is repeatedly called the Body of Christ.
“Who (Paul) now rejoice in my sufferings for you, . . . for His Body’s sake, which is the Church” (Col. 1:24), the Apostle Paul writes about himself.
Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, says he, are given by Christ “… for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ” (Eph. 4:11-12).
At the same time, bread and wine are made into the Body and Blood of Christ during the Divine Liturgy, and the faithful partake thereof. Christ Himself ordained it so, communicating His apostles at the Mystical Supper with the words, “Take, eat; this is My Body; … Drink ye all of it; For this is My Blood of the New Testament” (Mat. 26:26-28).
How is the Body of Christ at the same time both the Church and the Holy Mystery?
Are the faithful both members of the Body of Christ, the Church, and also communicants of the Body of Christ in the Holy Mysteries?
In neither instance is this name “Body of Christ” used metaphorically, but rather in the most basic sense of the word. We believe that the Holy Mysteries which keep the form of bread and wine are the very Body and the very Blood of Christ. We likewise believe and confess that Christ is the Son of the Living God, come into the world to save sinners, and become true man, that His flesh, taken from the Virgin Mary, was true human flesh; that body and soul Christ was true man, in all respects like man, except sin, and at the same time remaining true God. The Divine nature was neither diminished nor changed in the Son of God in this incarnation, likewise the human nature was not changed at this incarnation, but retained in full all human qualities.
Unchanged and unconfused forever, indivisibly and inseparably Godhead and manhood were united in the One Person of the Lord Jesus Christ.
****************
Christianity or the Church? by St. Ilarion (Troitsky), Holy New Martyr of Russia http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/sthilarion_church.aspx
The life of Christ the Savior presents the reader of the Holy Gospels with numerous great moments which fill the soul with some special sense of grandeur. But perhaps the greatest moment in the life of all mankind was that occasion when, in the darkness of a southern night, under the hanging arches of trees just turning green, through which heaven itself seemed to be looking at the sinful earth with twinkling stars, the Lord Jesus Christ, in His High Priestly prayer, proclaimed:
“Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are … Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word; That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us” (John 17:11; 20-21).
Special attention must be focused upon these words of Christ, for in them the essence of all Christianity is clearly defined. Christianity is not some sort of abstract teaching which is accepted by the mind and found by each person separately. To the contrary, Christianity is a life in which separate persons are so united among themselves that their unity can be likened to the unity of the Persons of the Holy Trinity. Christ did not pray only that His teaching be preserved so that it would spread throughout all the universe. He prayed for the unification of all those believing in Him. Christ prayed to His heavenly Father for the establishment, more correctly, for the restoration, on earth of the natural unity of all mankind. Mankind was created from one common origin and of one source (cf. Acts 17:26).
****************
The Official Statement from Mt. Athos on the Pope’s Visit to the Phanar (2006)
Karyae, 30 December 2006. http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/athos_popevisit2006.aspx
Roman Catholic ecclesiology varies, from one circular to the other; from the so-called “open” ecclesiology of the Encyclical «Ut Unum Sint», to the ecclesiological exclusivity of the Encyclical «Dominus Jesus». It should be noted that both of the aforementioned views are contrary to Orthodox Ecclesiology. The self-awareness of the holy Orthodox Church as the only One, Holy, Catholic (=overall) and Apostolic Church does not allow for the recognition of other, heterodox churches and confessions as “sister churches”. “Sister Churches” are only the local Orthodox Churches of the same faith. No other homonymous reference to “sister churches” other than the Orthodox one is theologically permissible.
****************
St John of Kronstadt gives us the true ecumenical prayer for unity among Churches – for them to return to the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church: https://classicalchristianity.com/2015/01/18/a-prayer-for-unity-in-christ/
Unite in this faith all the great Christian societies, woefully having fallen aside from the unity of the Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is Your Body and whose Head art Thou and the Savior of the Body… grant unto their hearts to know the truth and salvific nature of Thy Church and to unite with it; link to Thy holy Church also those who are suffering from ignorance, delusion, and the stubbornness of schism… Draw all nations populating the earth to this faith, that they may all glorify Thee, the only God of all, with one heart and one mouth.
I was fully aware that there would be some individuals who would take exception to my comments, but I would remind everyone that any Roman Catholic priest who would desire to join himself to the Orthodox Church would simply be chrismated into the Church, and vested as a priest. We do recognize the apostolic succession of the Roman Catholic Church, yet we also view them as having departed from the purity of the Apostolic Faith.
What a disaster of formatting my comment is… the links are available in that jumble I guess. St Paisios sums it up in the first link, reposted here. https://orthodoxchurchquotes.wordpress.com/2014/04/29/elder-paisios-on-common-prayers-is-it-proper-to-mix-trash-with-gold-so-much-struggle-was-waged-to-distil-the-dogma/
Today unfortunately, the European courtesy has come in and they try to show themselves as being nice. They wish to show superiority and finally they end up worshiping the two horned devil. “One religion, they tell you, should exist” and they level out everything. Some also come to me and tell me “All of us who believe in Christ should create one religion.” “Now it is as if you are telling me, I told them, about gold and copper, so many carats gold and that much copper, that was separated, to gather them and make them one again. Is it correct to mix them again? Ask a jeweler. Is it proper to mix trash with gold? So much struggle was waged to distil the dogma.”
The Holy Fathers must have known something for prohibiting the relationships with the heretics. Today they say: “we should pray together not only with a heretics but also with the Buddhist and with the fire worshiper and the demon worshiper. The Orthodox must also be present in common prayers and in their conferences. It is a presence.” What presence? They resolve everything with logic and justify the unjustifiable. The European mind believes that also the spiritual matters can also come into the Common Market. Some of the Orthodox who are shallow and wish to make a promotion, “a mission,” they arrange conferences with the heterodox to cause a sensation, believing this way that they promote Orthodoxy, by becoming so to speak “Hungarian goulash” with the false believers. Then the super-zealots take hold of the other end; they also blaspheme against the Mysteries of the New-calendarists, etc. and deeply scandalize the souls who have piety and Orthodox sensitivity.
On the other hand, the heterodox come to conferences, act like teachers, take whatever good spiritual thing they find from the Orthodox, they process it, they give it their own colour and mark and they present it as a prototype. And the strange contemporary world becomes touched by such strange things and is spiritually destroyed. The Lord though at the appropriate time will present the Marks, the Eugenikos and the Gregorys Palamas who will assemble all our deeply scandalized brothers, to confess the Orthodox faith and strengthen the traditions of the Church and give great joy to our Mother, the Church.”
Thank you. That was very informative.
Forgive me Father, that is troubling to hear you believe the Catholic Church has valid eucharist, and apostolic succession. This implies the Church is divided, as if there are multiple bodies of Christ; as if there the Catholics have a valid priesthood, and retain the faith of the Apostles. Does not this lead to the Anglicans also having apostolic success, perhaps even high-church Lutherans?
This is not Patristic, nor within our contemporary Saints or ancient Fathers.
May St John of Shanghai, of which you have a temple dedication, pray for us. Individual opinions do not matter – the Church, and Saints, and Holy Fathers matter. As Saint Paisios says, we are not allowed to change the faith held by the early Fathers and millions of martyrs who refused to bow before another faith.
****************
St Paisios, and St Porphyrios both refused to meet the pope. St Paisios refused to say ‘Our Father’ with Roman Catholics beause we do not share the same faith.
https://orthodoxchurchquotes.wordpress.com/2014/04/29/elder-paisios-on-common-prayers-is-it-proper-to-mix-trash-with-gold-so-much-struggle-was-waged-to-distil-the-dogma/
****************
Apostolic succession requires the same faith:
https://classicalchristianity.com/2010/06/01/early-fathers-on-apostolic-succession/
****************
Saint John of Shanghai on the Oneness of the Church, which is the Oneness of the Body of Christ
From Man of God, Saint John of Shanghai & San Francisco: The Church as the Body of Christ, p. 163-172
“And He (Christ) is the head of the body, the Church” (Col. 1:18),
“which is His body, the fullness of Him that filleth all in all” (Eph. 1:23).
In the Holy Scriptures the Church is repeatedly called the Body of Christ.
“Who (Paul) now rejoice in my sufferings for you, . . . for His Body’s sake, which is the Church” (Col. 1:24), the Apostle Paul writes about himself.
Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, says he, are given by Christ “… for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ” (Eph. 4:11-12).
At the same time, bread and wine are made into the Body and Blood of Christ during the Divine Liturgy, and the faithful partake thereof. Christ Himself ordained it so, communicating His apostles at the Mystical Supper with the words, “Take, eat; this is My Body; … Drink ye all of it; For this is My Blood of the New Testament” (Mat. 26:26-28).
How is the Body of Christ at the same time both the Church and the Holy Mystery?
Are the faithful both members of the Body of Christ, the Church, and also communicants of the Body of Christ in the Holy Mysteries?
In neither instance is this name “Body of Christ” used metaphorically, but rather in the most basic sense of the word. We believe that the Holy Mysteries which keep the form of bread and wine are the very Body and the very Blood of Christ. We likewise believe and confess that Christ is the Son of the Living God, come into the world to save sinners, and become true man, that His flesh, taken from the Virgin Mary, was true human flesh; that body and soul Christ was true man, in all respects like man, except sin, and at the same time remaining true God. The Divine nature was neither diminished nor changed in the Son of God in this incarnation, likewise the human nature was not changed at this incarnation, but retained in full all human qualities.
Unchanged and unconfused forever, indivisibly and inseparably Godhead and manhood were united in the One Person of the Lord Jesus Christ.
****************
Christianity or the Church? by St. Ilarion (Troitsky), Holy New Martyr of Russia
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/sthilarion_church.aspx
The life of Christ the Savior presents the reader of the Holy Gospels with numerous great moments which fill the soul with some special sense of grandeur. But perhaps the greatest moment in the life of all mankind was that occasion when, in the darkness of a southern night, under the hanging arches of trees just turning green, through which heaven itself seemed to be looking at the sinful earth with twinkling stars, the Lord Jesus Christ, in His High Priestly prayer, proclaimed:
“Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are … Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word; That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us” (John 17:11; 20-21).
Special attention must be focused upon these words of Christ, for in them the essence of all Christianity is clearly defined. Christianity is not some sort of abstract teaching which is accepted by the mind and found by each person separately. To the contrary, Christianity is a life in which separate persons are so united among themselves that their unity can be likened to the unity of the Persons of the Holy Trinity. Christ did not pray only that His teaching be preserved so that it would spread throughout all the universe. He prayed for the unification of all those believing in Him. Christ prayed to His heavenly Father for the establishment, more correctly, for the restoration, on earth of the natural unity of all mankind. Mankind was created from one common origin and of one source (cf. Acts 17:26).
****************
The Official Statement from Mt. Athos on the Pope’s Visit to the Phanar (2006)
Karyae, 30 December 2006.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/athos_popevisit2006.aspx
Roman Catholic ecclesiology varies, from one circular to the other; from the so-called “open” ecclesiology of the Encyclical «Ut Unum Sint», to the ecclesiological exclusivity of the Encyclical «Dominus Jesus». It should be noted that both of the aforementioned views are contrary to Orthodox Ecclesiology. The self-awareness of the holy Orthodox Church as the only One, Holy, Catholic (=overall) and Apostolic Church does not allow for the recognition of other, heterodox churches and confessions as “sister churches”. “Sister Churches” are only the local Orthodox Churches of the same faith. No other homonymous reference to “sister churches” other than the Orthodox one is theologically permissible.
****************
St Justin Popovic: The Orthodox Church and Ecumenism
https://www.reissinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/St-Justin-Popovich-The-Orthodox-Church-and-Ecumenism.pdf
****************
St John of Kronstadt gives us the true ecumenical prayer for unity among Churches – for them to return to the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church:
https://classicalchristianity.com/2015/01/18/a-prayer-for-unity-in-christ/
Unite in this faith all the great Christian societies, woefully having fallen aside from the unity of the Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is Your Body and whose Head art Thou and the Savior of the Body… grant unto their hearts to know the truth and salvific nature of Thy Church and to unite with it; link to Thy holy Church also those who are suffering from ignorance, delusion, and the stubbornness of schism… Draw all nations populating the earth to this faith, that they may all glorify Thee, the only God of all, with one heart and one mouth.
I was fully aware that there would be some individuals who would take exception to my comments, but I would remind everyone that any Roman Catholic priest who would desire to join himself to the Orthodox Church would simply be chrismated into the Church, and vested as a priest. We do recognize the apostolic succession of the Roman Catholic Church, yet we also view them as having departed from the purity of the Apostolic Faith.
What a disaster of formatting my comment is… the links are available in that jumble I guess. St Paisios sums it up in the first link, reposted here.
https://orthodoxchurchquotes.wordpress.com/2014/04/29/elder-paisios-on-common-prayers-is-it-proper-to-mix-trash-with-gold-so-much-struggle-was-waged-to-distil-the-dogma/
Today unfortunately, the European courtesy has come in and they try to show themselves as being nice. They wish to show superiority and finally they end up worshiping the two horned devil. “One religion, they tell you, should exist” and they level out everything. Some also come to me and tell me “All of us who believe in Christ should create one religion.” “Now it is as if you are telling me, I told them, about gold and copper, so many carats gold and that much copper, that was separated, to gather them and make them one again. Is it correct to mix them again? Ask a jeweler. Is it proper to mix trash with gold? So much struggle was waged to distil the dogma.”
The Holy Fathers must have known something for prohibiting the relationships with the heretics. Today they say: “we should pray together not only with a heretics but also with the Buddhist and with the fire worshiper and the demon worshiper. The Orthodox must also be present in common prayers and in their conferences. It is a presence.” What presence? They resolve everything with logic and justify the unjustifiable. The European mind believes that also the spiritual matters can also come into the Common Market. Some of the Orthodox who are shallow and wish to make a promotion, “a mission,” they arrange conferences with the heterodox to cause a sensation, believing this way that they promote Orthodoxy, by becoming so to speak “Hungarian goulash” with the false believers. Then the super-zealots take hold of the other end; they also blaspheme against the Mysteries of the New-calendarists, etc. and deeply scandalize the souls who have piety and Orthodox sensitivity.
On the other hand, the heterodox come to conferences, act like teachers, take whatever good spiritual thing they find from the Orthodox, they process it, they give it their own colour and mark and they present it as a prototype. And the strange contemporary world becomes touched by such strange things and is spiritually destroyed. The Lord though at the appropriate time will present the Marks, the Eugenikos and the Gregorys Palamas who will assemble all our deeply scandalized brothers, to confess the Orthodox faith and strengthen the traditions of the Church and give great joy to our Mother, the Church.”